Buying Land

S

stevo

Surin Legend
Interesting turn of events at the Land Registry Office today.

My wife and I have recently bought a piece of land. Today my wife went with the owner to change the names on the chanote.

The sale part went well and the owner signed all the necessary papers. When it came to my wife's turn, as the purchaser, she was told that she could not transfer the deeds without my signature. She was told that as she is married the forms also require the signature of her "certified spouse". She explained to them that I was happy for her to buy the land in her name only. They said that they still needed my signature. She even explained that I was not Thai, something they said that they already suspected as they had seen my wife's surname.

The reason given was that " any future sale of the land will also require both signatures."

Looks like a kind of joint ownership.

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stevo said:
Interesting turn of events at the Land Registry Office today.

My wife and I have recently bought a piece of land. Today my wife went with the owner to change the names on the chanote.

The sale part went well and the owner signed all the necessary papers. When it came to my wife's turn, as the purchaser, she was told that she could not transfer the deeds without my signature. She was told that as she is married the forms also require the signature of her "certified spouse". She explained to them that I was happy for her to buy the land in her name only. They said that they still needed my signature. She even explained that I was not Thai, something they said that they already suspected as they had seen my wife's surname.

Question : If
The reason given was that " any future sale of the land will also require both signatures."

Looks like a kind of joint ownership.

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That makes sense if your name appeared on the initial purchase documents (ie: transfer of monetary assets).
If you wanted to buy the land 'in her name only' you should have kept your name off any previous documents - just give her the cash, llet her sign the initial transfer documents and let her be the sole owner of deed and title.

Congratulations, now you are a joint owner of the land !
(Though I believe you can do nothing with it without your wife's express authorization. A Thai attorney hopefully should be able to dispel any inaccuracies).
 
When my wife and her sister swapped rice farms they did it by selling to each other, thus creating legally binding documents. I was summonsed unexpectedly to come to town immediately with passport to sign that I understood that the land belonged to the Gorgeous Lek alone. (I think). The Land Office would not proceed until I turned up and signed. I don't think my signature made me a part-owner of the rice farm.
 
FOREIGNERS married to a Thai national can't own land in Thailand, but the land department does allow a Thai national married to a foreigner to own land after a joint statement together with his or her foreign spouse or proof that the money expended on the land is personal property of the Thai spouse (read up on the procedure). This effectively means that the land (and in practice often land and house and in some cases condominium) is purchased as a personal property of the Thai spouse and not becomes a marital or jointly owned property between husband and wife (Sin Somros). The foreign spouse has therefore no claim to the property and the Thai spouse has the right to sell, mortgage, transfer or exchange the property without consent of the foreign spouse.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/protection-and-ownership-thai-spouse.html
 
Coffee said:
That makes sense if your name appeared on the initial purchase documents (ie: transfer of monetary assets).
If you wanted to buy the land 'in her name only' you should have kept your name off any previous documents - just give her the cash, llet her sign the initial transfer documents and let her be the sole owner of deed and title.

Congratulations, now you are a joint owner of the land !
(Though I believe you can do nothing with it without your wife's express authorization. A Thai attorney hopefully should be able to dispel any inaccuracies).
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There were no other documents. My wife went alone to register the land. I gave her the money. She was to register the land in her name.

I didn't feel the need to have any part of it. The Land Registry Dept did.

My wife cannot sell that land without my say so. That is what they said.

Maybe saying joint owner ship is the wrong terminology. It does, however, dispel all of this "it's in her name she can do what she wants" crap.( Not that she would do anything anyway).
 
karakara said:
FOREIGNERS married to a Thai national can't own land in Thailand, but the land department does allow a Thai national married to a foreigner to own land after a joint statement together with his or her foreign spouse or proof that the money expended on the land is personal property of the Thai spouse (read up on the procedure). This effectively means that the land (and in practice often land and house and in some cases condominium) is purchased as a personal property of the Thai spouse and not becomes a marital or jointly owned property between husband and wife (Sin Somros). The foreign spouse has therefore no claim to the property and the Thai spouse has the right to sell, mortgage, transfer or exchange the property without consent of the foreign spouse.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/protection-and-ownership-thai-spouse.html
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KK - very interesting.

So that i understand you clearly...
are you stating that Stevo was requested by the Land Registry office to sign a document clearly waiving his rights along with any future claim to the property ?
If so , I would think that would be a very different view than what Stevo stated previously.

I wonder if that document was provided to Stevo in English language or just in Thai.

Stevo, what are your thoughts ?
 
My best guess is that this is to do with 'matrimonial rules' rather than 'property law'.

The Farang can still not own land in Thailand but it may well be true that property/land that is sin somros (assets acquired during marriage) cannot be disposed of without the spouse's (Farang) approval.

I believe at one time with land purchase a Thai wife/partner had to certify that the purchase was being made with her own money - and not with money from the Farang.
 
I reckon Stevo signed something like what I signed which matches up with the information supplied by karakara.
 
What I signed was in Thai, but as I can read Thai I know what it was about. It clearly stated that those that signed the form during purchase are the same that have to sign at any time of sale.

As I said before, the Land Registry office said I had to be there, because my wife's marital status is "married".

Anybody thought that some rules may have changed? CoCo is probably pretty close with his idea.

I have been told from the horses mouth " The land cannot be sold without my consent".

All this is hearsay anyway. You only have to read my previous posts about my relationship with my wife to know that.

I just thought it mat help some other forum members.
 
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stevo said:
What I signed was in Thai, but as I can read Thai I know what it was about. It clearly stated that those that signed the form during purchase are the same that have to sign at any time of sale.

As I said before, the Land Registry office said I had to be there, because my wife's marital status is "married".

Anybody thought that some rules may have changed? CoCo is probably pretty close with his idea.

I have been told from the horses mouth " The land cannot be sold without my consent".

All this is hearsay anyway. You only have to read my previous posts about my relationship with my wife to know that.

I just thought it mat help some other forum members.
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When a Thai is married to a farang (and it is obvious due to the farang surname on the Thai ID card, it is necessary for the farang to visit the Land Office to sign a form stating that he has no involvement with the land purchase, and that the money for the purchase is solely that of the wife.

When it comes to selling the land, I don't think there has to be any farang involvement, because he has already signed disclaiming any entitlement. It is strictly a Thai person selling.

To avoid these problems it is perhaps best to keep the thai womans family name upon marriage.
 
I would now suggest that anyone who disbelieves me should go to the office and ask for themselves.

For anyone who can speak Thai but maybe cannot read Thai they may be able to follow what the lady said to me today.....

"Ta panraya dtongarn kai tee, tdong kor anuyart jak samee gorn. Samee tdong mar sen chuer doo-ay"

Meaning..."If your wife would like to sell the land she must have your permission and you must come into the office to sign your name too"

Only trying to help.

Anyone who is also on Buriram Expats may like to read the post that says "for what it is worth when we sold the house I had to sign to say I agreed with the sale"
 
Whilst I am sure nobody disputes what Stevo has said about todays events, I would suspect thast like most official Thai matters, each office, in each district or town has a different interpretation of what is required.

This legal thread...http://www.tilalegal.com/buy-house-land-thailand.php, option no 4 indicates what I have always understood the position to be.

My wife bought a property in Pattaya 11 years ago on behalf of my daughter who was under 18 at the time. I had to sign the necessary disclaimer. I was not required to be present when the property was sold.
 
Maybe we could invite (pay) a Thai lawyer to attend our next Get Together and answer members questions on land issues and anything else that is raised.
 
I total believe what Stevo is saying. Nick I totally belive what your saying as this is what happen to me exactly in Doi Saket.Had to sign a paper that said the money the wife was using was hers, the gentleman winked at me as saying "we believe it", spoke perfect English in this office. My name was put on the title because I had a thirty year lease. When we sold the house I just set out side and waited for the wife and new owner, I did not have to be there. This is so much like Thailand, no two offices will do or say the same thing. By my count you have 28 Administrational Directs in Buriram you'll be hard presses to fine two that are exactly alike in their dealings.
 
In Surin a couple of months ago, my wife purchased a piece of land where as usual , I had to sign a waiver saying that i had no claim to the land and that the land was Sin Tua and not Sin Sommros. The document was in Thai and English script. She then sold that same piece of land a week ago, and there was no signature or involvement needed by me whatsoever.
 
farang_bootneck said:
In Surin a couple of months ago, my wife purchased a piece of land where as usual , I had to sign a waiver saying that i had no claim to the land and that the land was Sin Tua and not Sin Sommros. The document was in Thai and English script. She then sold that same piece of land a week ago, and there was no signature or involvement needed by me whatsoever.
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So there is the difference. Mine is defined as Sin Sommrot. (not sommros)
 
I'm not sure about that Stevo. I'm not disbelieving what you are saying mate, but I think there has been some misunderstanding at the Land Office.
 
No misunderstanding at all. She told me right to my face.

I also saw it on the paper. "Somrot" is the official word for "married". It is the same word that is on marriage certificates.
 
stevo said:
No misunderstanding at all. She told me right to my face.

I also saw it on the paper. "Somrot" is the official word for "married". It is the same word that is on marriage certificates.
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Steve, no one disputes what happened on your visit. However, as a thinking man, how do you rationalise what happened to you with what is clearly in black and white on legal websites.

The Civil Code clearly defines what constitutes assets of the marriage and I would have thought that transactions such as yours, Lukey's and GL's clearly fall under sin somros (sinR sohmR rohtH - if you prefer). Why some land offices call for the disclaimer is therefore beyond me.




(up)​
CHAPTER IV ​
PROPERTY OF HUSBAND AND WIFE ​
Section 1465. Where the husband and wife have not, previous to their marriage, concluded a special agreement concerning their properties, the relations between them as regards to their properties shall be governed by the provisions of this Chapter.
Any clause in the anti-nuptial (also called prenuptial) agreement contrary to public order or good morals, or provided that the relations between them as regards such properties are to be governed by foreign law shall be void.
Section 1466. The ante-nuptial agreement is void if not entered in the Marriage Register at the time of marriage registration terms of the ante-nuptial; or if not made in writing and signed by both spouses and by at least two witnesses and entered in the Marriage Register at the time of marriage registration stating that the ante-nuptial is thereto annexed.
Section 1467. After marriage the ante-nuptial agreement cannot be altered except by authorization of the Court.
When there is final order of the Court to effect the alteration of cancellation of the ante-nuptial agreement, the Court shall notify the Marriage Registrar of the matter in order to have it entered in the Marriage Register.
Section 1468. Clauses in the ante-prenuptial agreement shall have no effect as regards the rights of third persons acting in good faith irrespective of whether they be altered or cancelled by the order of the Court.
Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.
Section 1470. Properties of husband and wife except in so far as they are set aside as Sin Suan Tua, are Sin Somros.


Section 1474. Sin Somros consists of:
(1) property acquired during marriage; (2) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will of gift made in writing if it is declared by such will or document of gift to be Sin Somros; (3) fruits of Sin Suan Tua.
In case of doubt as to whether a property in Sin Somros or not shall be presumed to be Sin Somros.
Section 1475. Where any Sin Somros is property of the kind mentioned in Section 456 of this Code or has documentary title, either husband or wife may apply for having his or her name entered in the documents as co-owners.
Section 1476. In managing the Sin Somros in the following cases, the husband and wife have to be joint manager, or one spouse has to obtain consent from the other:
(1) Selling, exchanging, sale with the right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property. (2) Creating or distinguishing the whole or a part of the servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or charge on immovable property. (3) Letting immovable property for more than three years. (4) Lending money (5) Making a gift unless it is a gift for charitable, social or moral purposes and is auitable to the family condition. (6) Making a compromise. (7) Submitting a dispute to arbitration. (8) Putting up the property as guarantee or security with a competent official or the Court.
The management of the Sin Somros in any case other than those provided in paragraph one can be made only by one spouse without having to obtain consent from the other.
 
Is it not just an extra precaution incase of future problems, to ensure that the Thai spouse gets the land/house and NOT the Farang?
 
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