Warning

C

ColinW

Surin relic
I bank with Bangkok Bank and have the normal savings account registered for internet banking which comes with a debit card which I use regularly.
We have been up to see friends in Khon Kaen and I last used my card there to withdraw cash from a blue bank ATM (Krungsi?) on Monday 3rd August.
I logged in to pay a bill from the account this morning to find my account had been emptied of 70,000 baht in 15 small transactions over the days of 4th and 5th August. The withdrawals were for cash and had the code for international ATM withdrawals.
Strangely most of the debits were for 52xx.xx baht which suggested to me they were withdrawals of 100 GBP.
I have never used this card in the UK so it is an international fraud.
Now the fun part has begun, I have this afternoon obtained the required police report, Bangkok Bank call centre say they will need a minimum (note minimum) of 60 days to investigate.
I am a careful bank user and always check my balance looks correct when I use an ATM but these thieves emptied my account between uses.
So guys be even more careful as the bank told me it is becoming increasing common in Chon Buri, Chiang Mai and other tourist places and I guess it could reach Surin in the near future - assuming my problem arose in Khon Kaen and not a few days earlier in Surin.
 
This crime is becoming all too common. It is very lucrative for organized crime to do.

I always like to use an ATM in a secure area like a shopping mall. It makes the fixing of skimming devices all that much harder to attach.

I always check the keyboard and card swipe for foreign objects and being loose.
I probably look like a scammer because I inspect it thoroughly before use. I like using machines that have a worn out look and grubby veneer, this is very hard to replicate, specialy the finger button wear. Luckily banks indemnify for losses occurred in this way as if they didn't, the technology may grind to a halt and they can't afford that.

I bet you feel violated, hope you get your money back soon.
 
Thanks Rice.
I am hopeful I will get my cash back, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.
The people in Surin Bangkok Bank suggested I go in again on Monday and talk to the Manager who is away from the bank until then.
 
I first banked with them until I too had some mysterious cash ATM withdrawals. It was about 8 years ago so I do accept things may have changed but I was not offered a refund by them. There was CCTV evidence that they gave my money to a Thai person so I promptly closed my account, took my fairly large balance to a competitor bank across the road.
 
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Question: In order for another person to make the withdrawal utilizing a magnetic 'stripe' that replicates your ATM card , doesn't that other person also require inputting your PIN ?

(...just askin')

I don't use Debit cards but I do utilize my Credit Card that doesn't require any PIN.

Are the utilization of Debit cards basically the same...no PIN necessary ?
 
I do not use a credit card but I do use a Debit card. Put card in the machine, enter your 4 digit code (PIN number), select action required and away you go.
 
nomad97 said:
I do not use a credit card but I do use a Debit card. Put card in the machine, enter your 4 digit code (PIN number), select action required and away you go.
Click to expand...

So what your stating is that a perpetrator would indeed require the four-digit PIN to make the transaction for either an ATM or Debit card.
 
Yes Coffee, you are quite right. Once the magnetic strip has been scanned they can reproduce your card easily. Now to answer your question. How they obtain your PIN has two methods. First is the fake keyboard that records and passes the pin through by way of a mechanical coupling eg you push a button that pushes another button underneath. This is the fake keyboard method the other is the micro video camera to observe your input. It is that simple. That is why you should always hide your input.

When all machines and card issuers start using chip only this will make the copying of your meta data almost impossible. I did say almost.
Until the scammers work a way of doing so. But the present system is way to easy.
 
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^^^ Rice , read OP. This doesn't jive with what happened at a Krungsi Bank ATM re: international transactions. shrug1
 
It is a puzzle to me Coffee.
I have never used the card in the UK.
We went on holiday to Bali in the middle of June and I used the card there.
I am assuming the cloned card was used in the UK based on the information that the transactions were at an International ATM, and the Thai Baht amounts charged were very close to 100 GBP based on current exchange rates.
I have never disclosed my pin to anyone, not even my partner.
The supposition that the cloning was done at the Krungsri ATM is based on Bangkok Bank's hypothesis.
If it was from the Krungsri I used the ATM at about 7.00pm on Monday evening, the bogus withdrawals started at 3.51am on Tuesday morning and there were 10 withdrawals finishing at 4.19am. They started again on Wednesday morning at 3.29 am and there were 5 withdrawals finishing at 3.31 am when the money ran out.
I am not sure why the bastards didn't continue withdrawing on Tuesday until the money ran out but I am guessing there is a daily withdrawal limit and they had reached it.
 
Colin, in the meantime did you at least change your PIN number...or did BKK Bank state they would issue you a new Debit card ?

I believe since the withdrawals started immediately following your Krungsi visit in Khon Kaen that is where someone got your PIN (but I'm no Sherlock).
 
At the moment Coffee my debit card has been cancelled.
I am going into the Surin Branch on Monday when he returns from holiday to see the Manager.
 
Coffee said:
Colin, in the meantime did you at least change your PIN number...or did BKK Bank state they would issue you a new Debit card ?

I believe since the withdrawals started immediately following your Krungsi visit in Khon Kaen that is where someone got your PIN (but I'm no Sherlock).
Click to expand...


Not much point in having a new debit card........They took ALL Colin's money.

A debit card is in fact just a standard ATM card, issued with all new bank accounts, unless specifically declined..

When used in an ATM machine, a 4 digit PIN number has to be inserted to obtain cash. Cash is available in 100 and 1000baht notes - usually a maximum of 20 notes per transaction.

When the card is used in a shop to buy something it is merely swiped, and the resulting piece of paper is signed. (Signature rarely if ever checked). PIN numbers are not required.

If the amounts of money withdrawn from Colin's account were not whole amounts that an ATM machine could dispense (ie in round hundreds/thousands), then very clearly the withdrawal was made outside Thailand in a foreign currency, and converted to baht to be debited to Colin's account.

Under the circumstances, I doubt the problem occurred in Khon Kaen, but rather Bali


How was Bali by the way Colin?
 
Coffee said:
^^^ Rice , read OP. This doesn't jive with what happened at a Krungsi Bank ATM re: international transactions. shrug1
Click to expand...

What you fail to see, is that this is an "International" organized crime syndicate.
The people that get the details email them around the world. The local perps get around 10% of the take. And yes it does Jive with what happened.
 
Rice said:
This crime is becoming all too common. It is very lucrative for organized crime to do.

I always like to use an ATM in a secure area like a shopping mall. It makes the fixing of skimming devices all that much harder to attach.
Click to expand...

So ...if it isn't an inside job perpetrated by a bank employee how could they so easily obtain Colin's PIN on a bank ATM...I do understand be able to copy the magnetic stripe.

Also I understand that hackers can pull PIN from breaking internal banking codes...so why wouldn't they just pull out THB 25,000 in three swipes....why diddly with 15 transactions of approx THB 5,000 ? shrug1
 
hmmm...

nomad97 said:
I do not use a credit card but I do use a Debit card. Put card in the machine, enter your 4 digit code (PIN number), select action required and away you go.
Click to expand...

Prakhonchai Nick said:
When the card is used in a shop to buy something it is merely swiped, and the resulting piece of paper is signed. (Signature rarely if ever checked). PIN numbers are not required.

If the amounts of money withdrawn from Colin's account were not whole amounts that an ATM machine could dispense (ie in round hundreds/thousands), then very clearly the withdrawal was made outside Thailand in a foreign currency, and converted to baht to be debited to Colin's account.
Click to expand...

That is why I inquired earlier if a PIN was required to utilize the Debit card...as it isn't to make a purchase with a Credit card.

Nomad's reply to my earlier inquiry (above).

In reality if a PIN is NOT REQUIRED (not stated by Nomad) to utilize a Debit card for "non-ATM" (cash) transactions...then I fully understand...same thing happens with Credit cards.

Now if the perp(s) went to an ATM in the UK to get cash - wouldn't they require the magnetic strip info along with Colin's PIN --shrug1-- (which you state isn't required for merchandise) ?
 
Coffee said:
So ...if it isn't an inside job perpetrated by a bank employee how could they so easily obtain Colin's PIN on a bank ATM...I do understand be able to copy the magnetic stripe.

Also I understand that hackers can pull PIN from breaking internal banking codes...so why wouldn't they just pull out THB 25,000 in three swipes....why diddly with 15 transactions of approx THB 5,000 ? shrug1
Click to expand...

The banks use an sophisticated algorithm that detects unusual transactions and shut down the card down in use. If they keep it low they avoid this detection, they know all the tricks. They did not get the PIN from breaking any internal code, please re read my other post on how the perps get PIN's. It is simple but effective.

While we are on this line of thought. I will also like to warn also about hotel and coffee shop type WIFI. Never use these to conduct online banking. This is because the perps book into hotels and set up a computer to track every bit of traffic coming and going on any network. Again they email this mass of data to hackers overseas where they sieve through the data looking for bank web site access then decoding what key strokes you types after. There is counter measures one can take though.
 
How was Bali by the way Colin?[/QUOTE]

Really enjoyed it Nick.
We had a tour guide for 4 days out of our 8 day stay and saw a lot of the island
 
Rice said:
The banks use an sophisticated algorithm that detects unusual transactions and shut down the card down in use. If they keep it low they avoid this detection, they know all the tricks. They did not get the PIN from breaking any internal code, please re read my other post on how the perps get PIN's. It is simple but effective.

While we are on this line of thought. I will also like to warn also about hotel and coffee shop type WIFI. Never use these to conduct online banking. This is because the perps book into hotels and set up a computer to track every bit of traffic coming and going on any network. Again they email this mass of data to hackers overseas where they sieve through the data looking for bank web site access then decoding what key strokes you types after. There is counter measures one can take though.
Click to expand...

Much appreciated Rice - good post.

Question: wouldn't this sophisticated algorithm have picked up the usage on ATMs in UK when Colin has never made any transactions within the UK ? Meaning, how does a card that has never been utilized out of SE Asia suddenly start being utilized five times a day in the UK ?

Colin, are you positive about transactions in the UK ? If so, what city / cities ?
 
Coffee said:
Much appreciated Rice - good post.

Question: wouldn't this sophisticated algorithm have picked up the usage on ATMs in UK when Colin has never made any transactions within the UK ? Meaning, how does a card that has never been utilized out of SE Asia suddenly start being utilized five times a day in the UK ?

Colin, are you positive about transactions in the UK ? If so, what city / cities ?
Click to expand...

Who said it was used in the UK. It was clearly used OUTSIDE of Thailand, as the odd amounts would suggest.

Did Colin I wonder, use his card in Bali to obtain cash. My son lives in Bali and tells me of all the banking and exchange scams there.
 
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